Why Christians are being so "banged up" right now.

vpstealth - Not so brilliant reply!  Christians are not going to change our attitudes. Whether you change yours or not, is really immaterial because we know that God is in control of His creation. I will pray for your salvation.  GG 

Ruthy I will also pray for yours.  In hopes you will learn that all people are not of the Christian faith and they will also get to their heaven. And that you are not God's prophet .

Jay #2.2

If you're a Christian then you believe that there is only ONE Heaven and there is only ONE door - one way to get there. If you believe anything else, then you're not a Christian - but something else.

Now, I don't have a problem with you believing something else, or nothing else at all. That's between you and God. If you want to hear about my beliefs, fine. I'm always willing to share - understanding that like some American Indian cultures exchanging beginning stories, and respect for each other's right to believe as they wish is a two way street.

And we must take care that we don't mistake religion for faith. The two are mutually exclusive.

Nofluer,

If you're a Christian then you believe that there is only ONE Heaven and there is only ONE door - one way to get there. If you believe anything else, then you're not a Christian - but something else.

Says who? You? Who gave you that authority? Has Jesus been chatting with you?

I consider myself Christian. I understand that I am Christian because I was born into a Christian family and a Christian society. If I had been born in India, I would be someone else, and undoubtedly would follow some other faith.

I am comfortable with Lutheranism. Free will, personal conscience and absolution, community, ... but I know that "I am comfortable" because of my upbringing. I see no reason to deny the name "Christian" to Methodists or even ... (drum roll) ... Catholics!

And further... Your approach would deny heaven to Buddha and all the gazillions of saintly aliens throughout the billions of galaxies who have never heard of the carpenter from Nazareth and never will... Absurd!

And further... God is love. (If She is not, then She does not interest me; She can go to h... you see what I mean.) Since God is love, damnation is impossible. If there is an afterlife, an eternity, then it would be infinitely monstrous to condemn a soul for all of eternity for anything done during their tiny four-score-and-ten here in this life. Infinitely monstrous. The opposite of love. If there is a paradise, we will all go there. Even Adolf.

If that seems too simple... there's Hindu reincarnation as a middle road...

....

Do you refuse me the name "Christian"?

Bob #2.4

God doesn't have grand children.

Because your parents were Lutherans, and because YOU are Lutheran, does NOT make you a Christian. It makes you a Lutheran and nothing more. "Lutheranism" is a branch of religion that you do not need faith in Jesus Christ and his dual nature (Man and God) to be. I know that for a fact because I was a Lutheran too - long before I became a Christian. I spouted the catechism and all the offeratory and responses - but I wasn't a Christian.

Being a Christian has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with the individual person coming to an understanding that he/she is not perfect and that only the perfect can enter Heaven and be with God. We cannot become perfect by our own actions because we are humans. So God sent His Son Jesus to be our blood sacrifice (Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness), to pay for our imperfection so that we can be acceptable to God, symbolically washed of our impurities in the Blood of Jesus.

But we must accept that payment on our behalf. We must individually determine that we need that sacrifice to be acceptable to God, and we must agree to allow Him to be our God by submitting to Him.

If some druggies came down the street and were shooting up your house, and one of them pointed the gun right at you, but someone else, a neighbor, jumped in front of the gun just as it fired. Would you turn your back on the body and deny that he saved you? Would you walk away and say, "Dumb azz!" Or would you get down on your knees and thank his body, and his parents, and anyone else who'd listen because he saved your life? Jesus saved your eternal soul - your forever life, as it were. Bob - Jesus died for YOU. If you were the ONLY "sinner" on Earth, He would still have been crucified to pay your debt.

Who gave me the authority to say all of this? Jesus and God did when I became a Christian. The doctrine is called the "Priesthood of the believer."

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the light. NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME."

The Bible says it, Bob.

Your "God is Love" is a hold-over from the flower children and their LSD. Yes - God IS love and He demonstrated that love by sending his son to die for YOU, in your place! But the Bible also tells us that God is a JUST God. Would God let evil people run rampant through Heaven raping and killing the souls of the people there? Or would he render unto each according to their actions? Without Jesus to pay for your bad stuff - you have to answer for it all on Judgment day. Without Jesus's blood covering you, it would REALLY suck to be you... and it would suck for all eternity.

Your calling God "she" BTW is as acceptable as me calling Him "He.' God cannot be defined by our language because He is not one of us. He is omnipotent (all powerful) and Omnipresent (everywhere and everywhen all the time at the same time). Since He created the Universe, He would necessarily be OUTSIDE the Universe as we know it. Some people call God "she" in an attempt to irritate Christians - but if such bothers a Christian, they don't understand God even as much as He has given us the ability to understand.

I wouldn't deny Buddha entry to Heaven. That's God's job. As for the "saintly Aliens" - you should know that Romans 8:19 - 23 says:

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of it's own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from it's slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth until now. and not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."

Because of the above, I expect the dog I had as a kid to be in Heaven.

I DO NOT "refuse you the name Christian." God does because by your own words you prove that you're not.

You can turn it around, Bob. You can change that. Your eternal future is in your hands. Just reach out to Him and He'll guide you. Don't wait too long.

Nofluer,

Do you believe that all those who never hear of Jesus are damned? Would you worship a God so hideously evil?

The Bible says that they will be judged by their own standards. But you've heard of Him.

Could you cite the verse that says they will be judged by their own standards? I'm not word-by-word knowledgeable...

#2.8

"Could you cite the verse that says they will be judged by their own standards? "

King James Authorised Version [KJV]

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. [12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Romans 2: 5 - 29

(Book of Romans Chapter 2, verses 5 through 29)

Chapter 3 also addresses this subject.

Thanks.

That's a reasonable approach. I have a hard time accepting reason on one side and unreason on the other.

Your timing is impeccable, Nofluer! Did you notice that?

I must have hit the "enter" key only seconds before yourself... :p

Gentiles - referring to non-Jews.

I respect what you are saying, but I disagree.  I've found that many scoffers are looking for something real.  They want evidence of action in the world that they live in, not just theories and pretty words.  There is nothing more real.  I think for the most part, we just need to cut the crap and stop pretending we are better than we actually are, and share our experience as a person.  Just my opinion.

Now that's a novelty! You are on to something, savannah.

That is exactly what we non-Christians do, when we speak spirituality with other people. We share our dreams, hopes, and experience as a person.

For seekers of philosophy- and spiritual matters to engage in a debate with a "traditional" Christian person is like casting pearls before swine. For you only get the same answers built on a premise that we don't agree on - and never an indicator that we are on the same spiritual level or share the same human philosophies.

Thank you VPS, I think.  People think about it way too much.  Honesty is always the best policy.  I don't always know exactly WHY I believe something chapter and verse, but I know when it is real to me, and my friends (scoffers among them) like to talk about it.  We all walk around in the same skin so to speak, we live and breath and hurt the same.  God is very real to me.  God is very active in my life.  I can talk about that without making a big production out of it.  We agree to disagree at the end, but that's ok with me.  The convincing is not my job, just the telling.

Thank you VPS, I think.

haha - not so distrustful! I meant what I wrote, you are definitely on to something!

God is very real to me.  God is very active in my life.

I truly respect that, Savannah.
Not so active in mine, but being a Deist I acknowledge the possibility for an Infinite Intelligence.

That was easy! And without one single bible quote. :) (teasing)

This is why I love Newsvine.

Conrad - If speaking about Salvation and Redemption didn't reach my ears, I'd still be lost.  So, I believe it is alright to speak up about what one believes, and it's up to the individual what they will or will not believe. 

Conrad #4.8

As Savanna put it:

The convincing is not my job, just the telling.

What happens after that is up to you and God.

One of my problems with religion is the way culture ends up getting taught as the Word of God. I've been known to bounce people who I hear TELLING new Christians things like "Smoking and drinking are sins! You must STOP that sort of thing NOW THAT YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN." And I've challenged those who INSIST that a couple MUST be "married" in order to be right with God to find for me the command and the ceremony in the Bible. (There is none) ;-D

Once the person is a Christian, they should have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - (That's "God On Board" for those who don't understand the Jargon.) ;-D Once the new Christian has that, then they don't NEED me or anyone else to tell them what to do or not do. God will take care of it. If they ASK for instruction - then that is a different thing than me shoving it down their throats.

Or as I sometimes put it, MY God is all powerful. If he wants something, He can accomplish it. And if someone's doing something He doesn't want them to do, He can take care of that too. He knows His people better than I do, and He doesn't need hall monitors.

That said, of course sometimes He has me do things... like give to a certain charity, or talk to someone who needs to hear a freindly word. But He's NEVER told me to tell someone else what to do or not do.

I agree with Savannah and with Ruthy. But, I also must say with complete honesty that it is our duty as believers to spread the word of Christ. That is who we are and the message sent to others must be clear and powerful.

As human beings, it is impossible to remain on the straight and narrow in regards to how we spread God's word or in everyday life. Those who don't believe seem to think that Christians are not allowed to make mistakes, to make poor judgments and that couldn't be further from the truth.

Just because we believe does not mean we are not human or incapable of unkind thoughts or feelings. That is an impossiblity and I don't think it can never be attained.

I believe that the formula given was 1) feed them, 2) hell them, THEN 3) teach them. The problem I have seen is the multitudes that skip to the third step first and never seem to get around to the other 2...

That's about the truth too...people have become so numb and non caring.... all about me and the right now.....

"Some Christians have a bad name", you say. And..Some non-Christians don't have a bad name?  There have always been those who think they can shout us down!  But, in my humble opinion, they only shout themselves down. 

We are all in this world together, trying to find our way, and to help others along the way.  If we quote our Bible verses and what they mean to us, it is because we're trying to understand and share what we truly feel.  There is no harm in that.  Everyone has a right to speak their mind, and heart.  GG

Then why do you feel you have the right to help others along the way when they don't want your help?  You are trying to force your beliefs on others..

Ruthy? Why does anyone have to "shout you down"? If you are speaking quietly about your beliefs, no one should have to raise their voice. If you allow them to ask honest questions, no one should have to shout you down. If you are firm in your beliefs, they will quickly learn that "shouting" only hurts their vocal cords. People only resort to "shouting" when the other party is being so loud and offensive that little else is left as a resort.

Val - I'm sorry for all the angst you feel about Christians, but don't judge all of us because of some who have "feet of clay".  Human beings are far from perfect and that includes each one of us, Christian or not. 

 Stomping Christians is great sport for some these days, especially here on the Vine!  That's not threatening to me. 

 Seems to me there are plenty of people who are not Christians that get a bashing too, and deserve it for the foul and evil deeds they commit.  Let 'Justice for All' be our motto but let us not try to carry out this Justice ourselves!  GG

Your are right there, about stomping Christians as a sport. There are several no names will be said, that if they even smell the word God on a site, they are all over them like flies on a cow patty.

But the cow patty has some uses, they are good fertilizes to make fruit grow and other uses, flies on the other hand, well they spread diseases and are just plain filthy little creatures.

Hoping you get this as the thread begins to expire:  thank you for a deep, thoughtful and sincere response.

Mike

I agree. I am a Baptist and the Great Commission in Matthew is not a Baptist doctrine Conrad it is a Bibilical doctrine. I have heard so much about "liberal Christian, concervative Christian. There is no such division. Either you are a Christian or not. If you cannot accept God's Word on one point then you have to disregard it all. Either the Bible is complete Truth or a complete lie. You make your choice. Conrad, are you afraid of speaking the truth? If so I'm glad you're retired. People need to heed whom they hear? The most troubling scripture in the Bible quotes "when the blind lead the blind they both fall in the ditch. That blind leader will be accountable. Is this harsh talk, yes but Hell is hot.

I am a Christian in more than just words.  My family and I attend church.  I'm a lay minister.  My wife is a member of the Order of St. Luke's.  We serve several missionary societies.  My Army duties have often kept me from attending services at my own church but I find a church where ever I am to attend.

Now, that being said, There are things you have said about why non Christians don't like Christians, but we as Christians are beginning to question some the things you have pointed out.  To blindly believe, as Joe apparently does, is wrong.  I've never believed in Original Sin.  To say that babies are born with sin is wrong. That is only one example.  Conrad has shown others.  i don't believe that just because you aren't A Church Believer, like I won't go into a Baptist service, you will go to hell is totally wrong.

My thoughts for what they're worth.

Conrad, it appears to me that you are doing the same things you criticize in your article as being the reasons Christians are attacked today. 

That's the thing that has always struck me about Liberal Theology.  It teaches we must be open and accepting of anything and everything, except of course, those Bible believing people.  There is tolerance and acceptance of everybody, except those who believe in the Bible and try to live by it's words.  Isn't there something about that message that strikes you as being wrong? 

Let me say, your welcome to believe what ever you like, that's the wonderful thing about the free will that God has given us.  But if we discount the Bible as "just another book", and we seek to learn from other beliefs and other religions, what is left?  Where is the center of your beliefs?  What do you stand on?  Where do you go for guidance?

I realize that there are many scholars who reach the point of education where they begin to believe that they know what's best, but isn't that one of satan's traps that the Bible warns us about?  Leaning towards our own understanding instead of seeking God for guidance. 

Isn't the basis of Christianity love and understanding that there is no such thing as a "perfect Christian"?  There are only forgiven Christians, no perfect one except for Him who paid the untimate sacrifice so that we can have direct communication with God.  Aren't we forgiven on the same level that we are able to forgive? 

Liberal Theology was begun by men who sought to raise questions about the Bible, and as that was their purpose, that is what they have done.  Who do we seek for the answers to those questions, scholars, or God? 

Conrad,

However, I am aware that over a hundred of the top biblical scholars in the world have decided that Jesus did not say these words. They are probably close to something he said.

If you don't believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, how can you claim "Christianity"?  It is scripture that gives us Christ's Deity.  It is scripture that tells us that Jesus is exactly who He said He was.  It is scripture that gives us the promises of belief and the consequences of unbelief.  Those are the fundamental beliefs of Christians.  If you don't believe the Bible to be His words, how can you claim the beliefs that Christ gives us through His Word?  How do you reconcile being a Christian but not believing in the Christian's Instruction Manual?

How can you say that a book written, in some cases a thousand years, after the death and resurrection of Jesus; and written by word of mouth, written by scribes with little or no education, and on and on, are the exact words of Christ.

I truly believe that the basic tenets are true but I don't believe they are the exact words.

You also must remember that the early Christians then the Catholic church threw out some things they didn't like and that would harm their brand of Christianity.

If you believe the book, the Bible, is the direct words of Christ you are wrong.

I don't understand why I was off topic

How can you say that a book written, in some cases a thousand years, after the death and resurrection of Jesus; and written by word of mouth, written by scribes with little or no education, and on and on, are the exact words of Christ.

Because I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit.  I believe that it was God who wrote the Bible, who used the vessels of men to write and record His teachings and His words.  I don't believe that the Bible is the words of men, but rather the words of God transcribed by men.  Just as you have translators today, God used these men to translate for Him.

If you believe the book, the Bible, is the direct words of Christ you are wrong.

Well, if I don't believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, I can't believe in Christ.  The Bible is our tool.  It is part of our relationship with God.  He speaks to us through these words and teaches us what is good.  It is the Bible that gives us the promises.  So if you don't believe in the Bible, you can't have faith in the promises of God.  It is as essential to the life of a true Christian, as prayer.

See that's where we part company.  I believe in the basics of the Scriptures but not as direct words of Christ or the Disciples. The Bible is indeed our tool for Life, but it is still not accurate.  I totally agree it Christ spoke through these Scriptures but I don't believe the are the exact words of Christ, I believe they are basically the ideas given by Christ but rewritten time and time again and changed to meet the needs of the those writing them down, or their masters, in the cause of the early Catholic Popes.

Can you glean any of this CV5000?

The bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit ,and we are to believe every word of it. You see, that is where a lot of Christians fall short, they only believe what best suits them.

By your own paragraph you are saying that Christ only inspired the Bible.  That means man wrote it and it was edited by others on down the time-line.

Now, saying that, does not mean that I don't believe in the Bible and the Scriptures but I see them as a way to live my life.  And if I follow them then I will meet my maker when that time comes.

jay,

rewritten time and time again and changed to meet the needs of the those writing them down, or their masters, in the cause of the early Catholic Popes.

Actually, the Bibles that the Catholic Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, etc. used were written in the original language (Greek & Latin).  They had not been translated, so that the people HAD to rely upon the leaders of the Church for the translations, as opposed to being able to read the scriptures for themselves.

The true writings of the Bible pre-date the Catholic Church, so that argument holds little authority with me.  I believe there is a lot of confusion between "The Church" and "The Catholic Church" causing many people to think that because Rome made "Christianity" it's state religion in 330 AD it somehow negates the first 300+ years of the Christian Church.  Rome didn't have the only Church, and though the Catholic Church did for many years try to "hide" the Bible, it didn't change the word of God.

The Old Testament or Torah has been keep for thousands of years, and funny enough, every ancient copy that has ever been found of the old Torah, has "amazingly" matched the others.  The New Testament was written entirely by the Disciples (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Peter) and the Apostle Paul.  All of these writings occurred within the first 100 years of the Church.  These men, while physically did the act of writing the words, were given over to the "inspiration" of the Holy Spirit (who is a member of the Godhead).

You need to pay more attention to the history of the Catholic Church and the Popes of Old.  The splits they went through and the changes they made in the Bible.

Again you aren't looking at the picture.  The Bibles translation into whatever language was done by hand and written by unlearned scribes who made their own changes.

Also, much of the Bible, Old and New, was passed down by word of mouth.  Anytime something is passed word of mouth it gets changed.

I defy you to find any copy, hand written or whatever, that was done entirely by the Disciples. I'm glad you believe this if it helps your belief in Christ.  I don't happen to follow that logic.  The Bible is the last word in how to live your life, how to deal with adversity, etc.  I believe the parables and the Gospels are true in their examples but I do not believe they are the exact words of Lord Christ.

I'm not sure that I am explaining this to you so that you understand what I'm talking about.  Sorry about that.

jay,

I understand.  It is okay.  You don't find truth in the Bible.  I do.  It is a difference, and that is okay. 

Since the end of the "Dark Ages", scholars have gone back to the ancient texts, and from those translated and painstakingly taken great care to be accurate. 

The Old Testament remained in Hebrew until c.280-150 B.C. when it was translated into Greek at Alexandria, Egypt. This was known as the Septuagint. The next language change occurred when Jerome (c. 383-405 A.D) translated the Holy Bible into the Latin Vulgate. This was used by the clergy for nearly 1000 years.

The first English translation was completed by John Wycliffe and soon after, King James authorized the English version that has come to be known as the King James Version. This was in 1611.

I hold hope in the Bible.  I do believe it to be the word of God.  I believe it to be true.  Without the truth of the Bible, I have no hope in Christ, for it is through the Bible that Christ is taught.  I don't give any weight to the Gnostic Gospels, which contradict Biblical teachings, which is why they were not added to the Bible.  I believe them to be lies, not to mention the fact that they were written well after the New Testament texts were penned.

Mike as always what you say is Common Sense!  Thank you, you're a gem!  GG

Then you can't rationalize that the people making the translations changed things and as each translation came about more things were changed.  There is always differences between language changes.  The various Hebrew, Old to New.  Hebrew to Greek, Greek to Roman Latin to Constantinople Latin, to Old English.  Are you getting the drift.  There is no way that the Bible can  be kept in the same form or remain true through all that and the years.

Now before getting your vestments in an uproar.  I believe in the Scriptures and in the Bible.  I believe that, although not the direct words of God or Christ, the meanings have  stayed true.

Jay, how can we know that the Bible is real and true?  The first is the reliability of the underlying documents. On this level the evidence is utterly astonishing. No other volume in the world has even a small percentage of ancient manuscripts, parchments, papyri, and other documents which antedate the printing press. They number over five thousand! In the terrible days of persecution by the Roman emperors, many of the precious copies of the Scriptures were destroyed by imperial edict. Yet several were kept in secret and so God's Word was preserved throughout the centuries. It is also remarkable that the thousands of underlying documents agree to such a surprising extent. We may be sure that even today we have the authentic Bible.

But there is another level of our acceptance of the truth of the Bible. This is a faith issue, and it is interwoven with all of God's work in our lives. There is a way in which God's call on our lives nudges us toward faith and life. We can resist and object. We can listen to the dozens of doubts and objections the Enemy puts before us. For those who do not believe the Bible, it is not because they are unable to believe, rather they are unwilling to believe. But as we are open to God's voice, we hear his mandate growing more clear as he calls, "Believe!" This is a level beyond mere factual analysis. It is the level of faith where we finally respond, "I believe! Help my unbelief!"

Christians believe that the message God gave us in the Bible is unique, and in fact, infallible.  It is the work of the Holy Spirit who so guided the writers of the Scripture that they gave us, in their unique manner, exactly the message God intended. So we can say that the Bible is a very human book, for we see in it both elegance and lack of polish, both finesse and struggle. But it is a divine book as well, for it is the only book in all the world that is truly "God-breathed". It is humanity's precious gift from God. Is it your guide for time and eternity?

Son you still don't get it.

Conrad,

You were wrong to delete... and you were wrong to answer.

'Not by might nor power' had absolutely no business interrogating you. His questions are superb examples of exactly the ultra-Christian self-sufficiency that your initial article denounced. Since he knows that he is a "good Christian", it is his right to be rude and overbearing... He empowers himself. It is a technique that, by definition, is infallible!

You said you are a Christian. He asked, peremptorily, "What denomination?" He presumed that one may not be a Christian unless one is a member of a denomination...

... and so on...

I suppose that in a way your answering, patiently, a post that was nothing more than verbal assault... proves that you are indeed a good Christian...

Why should I when he has disrespected the Spanish for doing it wrong when they are the most christain of anyone in the world and then comes to america and and says we are being disrespectful to the church when it is the church leaders who do cruel things to our children. How can I respect a man like that who dispises any and all change? I have to have some change in order to function day by day.

But we must understand, that is the basis for Liberal Theology and this Universalism Movement that this article demonstrates.  There is tolerance and acceptance for others, but no tolerance or acceptance for those who believe the Bible to be the Word of God.   Those who believe the Bible is God's Word must be silenced and those who follow this path feel justified in doing so. 

Non believers have been bashing Christians for a very long time. This is really nothing new, that is just my opinion. Except today we now have TV, Radio, computers. It just makes it easier to notice that Christians are bashed.

And as far as being bashed for being a Christian, It is going to continue to happen. Christians need not to get back at those that are bashing them in the same manner as they are being bashed.

MEEKNESS AND KINDNESS! not name calling striking judgement on them, for that is not our job as Christians. But we are to be bold when speaking, not lying in a false truth.

And the Universalism Movement I speak of is the latest attempt to rebuild Liberal Churches in our country.  Liberal Theology has been on the decline since the 1970's and many liberal churches and denominations are in trouble these days, many of them have already closed the doors.  Universalism seeks to fill the pews by being accepting of other beliefs and religions, with the intention of "learning from different beliefs", much as you have stated in your article.  Universalism accepts all beliefs and religions except one.  They openly proclaim that they are not accepting of those who believe the Bible to be God's Word, and call those who believe the Bible and try to live by its words "the problem".  They can't accept that they may be responsible for the decline in their attendance, so they seek to blame conservative viewpoints as the reason for their decline.  If I have mis-judged your words and wrongly identified you as a part of this movement then I am sorry, but your words echo the things I know and have heard about this.

That is right. We can't force them, that is why we have free will, and it has to be your choice,not ours. But when we are talking and someone is listing, we have to speak truth to them.

Sure Conrad, you must not have looked very hard?  I can point you in the direction, but before I do, this I copied and pasted from "What We Believe" on one of their websites:

We do not, however, hold the Bible - or any other account of human experience - to be either an infallible guide or the exclusive source of truth. Much biblical material is mythical or legendary.

Sound familar?

http://www.uua.org/index.shtml

I feel certain you could submit your article and have them publish it for you.  It fits right in.

Conrad

First let me point out that I have not told you that you are wrong.  I've simply used scripture to address your expression of beliefs. 

However, for you to have made the decision that I am wrong because I believe the Bible, then you have passed judgment on me for my belief. 

I advocate "Love" as the central theme in the gospel message.  Humility, the realization that it is of and for God, and not by or of ourselves is another important principle. 

Truth however, comes from the study of the scriptures and is revealed by the Holy Spirit, not men.  Salvation is a gift of God, not something we can do anything to earn. 

You advocate acceptance and tolerance, yet the object of your condemnation is those who believe the Bible and attempt to live by His Word.  Your article advocates that if we are accepting and tolerant of other religions views, then as Christians we will be liked better.  But as truth, that will never happen according to Jesus and the Bible, unless we become part of the world. 

Christianity is not under attack today because of our actions, it's because we are not of this world and as such we are not received by the world. 

Please don't misunderstand me, as I know that there have been many who believe their calling is to go out in the street and beat people over the head with their Bible, but I don't believe that's what the Bible teaches us to do.  I believe that instead of preaching to some homeless person on the street corner, Jesus would have taken that person and feed him instead.  We are to lead by example.  Our words carry little influence, our actions on the other hand do. 

The Bible also tells us that we don't have the power or influence to reach others, that's the Holy Spirits job, not ours.  He puts people in our path, and we need to be in the position to carry out His purpose when he does, but there is nothing we can say or do that changes anothers heart. 

I have done much study in various religions and their beliefs, not to learn from them, but to learn how to witness Jesus Christ more effectively. 

Again I'll tell you that your welcome to believe what ever you want, but when you present your opinions as "truth" while condemning others because of their belief in "truth", your doing the exact same thing that you are condemning.  Can't you see that?

Mike,

There was a part in your post that hit me in a good way. Where you said that God will put a person in our path. I just want to say thank you for telling this, for it will help me with this person.

I have stated that I believe truth is relative, not absolute (at least so far as human perception andundertanding are concerned). That means that for you, your understanding is "right". And for me, my understanding is "righr".

So if some tribe of people in some far away land, had the perception that it was right to throw and infant into a volcano, does that make it right?  What's more important, perception, or what we base our perceptions on?

Does any of this speak to where you think we are in understanding each other?
Or, are we just locked into a repeat of that old song: I can do anything better than you. No you can't. Yes Ican. No you can't . Yes I can. No you can't Yes I can.

I haven't said you can't, I've said you can believe what ever you want.  It is not my place to stand in judgment over you, that's God's job, not mine.  I have only made a sincere effort to understand the things you have said. 

The Bible says that with men, these things are impossible, but with God, all things are possible.  So if it was a talking snake, or if it was sex instead of an apple, these are things that really don't matter now do they?  The only thing that matters is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and developing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  It's when we start to accept other possibilities, instead of believing in Jesus, that things start down hill, in my humble opinion. 

I have atheist friends whom I engage in conversation all the time.  I listen to their points and make mine, and it's done in a respectful manner out of love, not condemnation.  But when I reach the point of telling them that they are right and I am right, then they remain forever lost....correct?  Again, I'll ask you to show me the scripture that says we are to accept other religions and learn from them, or that we are to be in pursuit of worldly things so the world will accept us better, and I'll jump on your bandwagon, but we both know there is no such scripture. 

So for salvation to be had, we must put our complete faith in Jesus and trust the Holy Spirit to guide us through the pitfalls of this world. 

When somebody asks me for proof that God exist or that Jesus was real, I am always reminded of this story:

Here is a man who was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. He grew up in another village. He worked in a carpenter shop until He was thirty. Then for three years He was an itinerant preacher.

He never owned a home. He never wrote a book. He never held an office. He never had a family. He never went to college. He never put His foot inside a big city. He never traveled two hundred miles from the place He was born. He never did one of the things that usually accompany greatness. He had no credentials but Himself...

While still a young man, the tide of popular opinion turned against him. His friends ran away. One of them denied Him. He was turned over to His enemies. He went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed upon a cross between two thieves. While He was dying His executioners gambled for the only piece of property He had on earth – His coat. When He was dead, He was laid in a borrowed grave through the pity of a friend.

Nineteen long centuries have come and gone, and today He is a centerpiece of the human race and leader of the column of progress.

I am far within the mark when I say that all the armies that ever marched, all the navies that were ever built; all the parliaments that ever sat and all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully as has that one solitary life.

(Dr James Allan Francis)

Is there anything in the history of mankind that compares? 

Mike

Christianity is not under attack today because of our actions, it's because we are not of this world and as such we are not received by the world.

This is exactly why Christians in the United States are under attack.  Evangelical Christians have given every indication that no one but them are able to see the "light" and that they are the only ones that have the answer to all the Earth's problems and that if you don't follow their exact intrepretation of the the "word" you are dammed.

Many of us, being Christians ourselves, don't want them speaking for us and there is the rub.  We arn't the "loud mouths"  the Evangelicals seem to be.

It has nothing to do with being "of this world" or being "received in this world".  It has everything to do with following the tenets of the Bible, which, IMHO a lot of evangelicals are not doing.

Many of us, being Christians ourselves, don't want them speaking for us and there is the rub.  We arn't the "loud mouths"  the Evangelicals seem to be.

Actually jay, I would say you are being just as "loud mouthed" and "opinionated" about what you believe. 

Let's try this:

"I am a Christian, and as a Bible believer, I don't want you speaking for me, because you are mis-representing everything Christ told us."

Isn't that what you are saying to us?  Doesn't sound good, nor does it feel good, does it?  "Tolerance" goes both ways.  Oh, and we don't claim to be the only ones who see the "light".  We speak the truth of the Bible.  If you don't want to believe the Bible (which I already know you don't count as accurate), you don't have to.  But telling Bible believing Christians that they are wrong for following the teachings of the Bible, is just, well, intolerant.

Jay....you can decide for yourself if you think the Bible is real or not.  Perhaps you can enlighten me with the scripture that tells us we can decide for ourselves which parts are real and which aren't?  I haven't ever read those verses. 

I haven't given you anything in any of my comments that isn't based in the Bible.  I try to keep my life grounded in a Biblical basis. 

So if I am teaching and preaching the Bible, why would you not want me speaking for you if you also believe in the Bible? 

So it really comes down to, do we believe the Bible is "just a book", or is it God's Inspired Word and direction for our lives? 

You speak of various translations and changes from the original text, but as one who constantly reviews the original text, I see no contradictions between the Bible we have and what was written thousands of years ago.  The evidence for the Bible is overwhelming. 

Many brilliant people deny that the Bible is true, so obviously sheer intelligence is not the key to faith in the Bible. Jesus gives us an insight when he said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:31-32, NIV) That sense of freedom in your soul which Jesus mentions is one way to gauge the truth of the Bible. That is, you'll be free from the horrible compulsion that you have to earn God's approval. You'll be free from fear about your eternal destiny, and free from the grip of slavery to your pride. In other words, the results in your life will demonstrate the truth of your faith! Mere intelligence alone can never give that freedom.

Actually ConservativeVoice I don't give a rat's ass what you think.  I feel less intolerant than you as you give the impression you are correct.

We speak the truth of the Bible. 

According  to you.

According  to you.

Actually, no, not according to me, according to God. :-)

 I feel less intolerant than you as you give the impression you are correct.

I believe the Bible is correct, not me.  I believe God is correct, not me.  :-)

No according to you and no other unless you can prove to me God is speaking to you like he does to Bush.

I also believe the Bible is correct, in spirit but not in text.

No you can never be correct, you are human just as I am.  You should never forget that.  Which you did with this comment:

Actually jay, I would say you are being just as "loud mouthed" and "opinionated" about what you believe.

Which tells me that you consider yourself to be the only one here that is right.  There for completly intolerant of any other person that does not agree with you.

Actually, I was trying to make a point, but you missed it, apparently.  I did to you, what you have done to me and Mike, and you got offended.  Go figure.  Guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander after all.  Seems to me that you are the only one who is allowed to dish it out. 

I will repeat.  I believe GOD is correct, not me.  I believe the Bible is the WORD OF GOD, therefore because He is correct, so is the Bible. 

Blessings.

Well actually I was a lot more civil that you and tried very hard to explain myself which you did not and only offered

I will repeat.  I believe GOD is correct, not me.  I believe the Bible is the WORD OF GOD, therefore because He is correct, so is the Bible.

Which adds nothing to the discussion because I don't disbelieve you.

신은 당신을 강복한다

I do believe that in order to believe in" God", you would have to believe in "His Word"!

All of his Word, not just what makes a person feel good.

"God's Word is correct"

Actually, this entire article and thread relates exactly with I was saying in a sermon I wrote about 3 weeks ago, Deception Is Living With Us.

There are many churches teaching and preaching that we should question the Bible instead of using it as a guide.  This same subject lead me to Are We Committed To Truth?

The challenge for Christians is correcting in Love, which is why this week's message is What Love Is

I plan on spending the next four weeks in 1 Corinthians 13, the book of Love. 

I have a very dear friend of mine who is also a pastor who has believes this liberal theology that has infected our churches.  He was recently explaining to me how his sermon was based on another book other than the Bible and how his church was going to spend a 6 week study on this book, not the Bible. 

Now how do we relate to the people who have come to accept that the Bible isn't important?  How do we explain that Grace, not works, is what Christianity is about?  How do we carry the message of "Love" forward, without compromising God's Word?

I am very much interested in any input anybody might have?

Then you believe him to be wrong?

Well Jay, I have difficulty with church services that are suppose to honor and praise God,  attempting to do so by leaving the Bible out of the equation. 

If this were a movement that was thousands of years old, or had some kind of scriptural basis, I'd consider it, but it's a fairly recent movement and there is no scripture that tells me anything of the kind. 

As I said, he is a very dear friend, I love him dearly and we work together on several different projects and causes, but I have difficulty understanding how you can leave the Bible out of church.  It seems to me that he is putting the word of another man, above the word of God.  I hope I explained that where it is easy to understand?

Do we not then find ourselves disagreeing over what is the proper or appropriate metaphor for God? Do not some use an anthropomorphic metaphor? While others talk in more abstract word-symbols, e.g. ground of our being? But both may be attempting to reference the same phenomenon?  

Disagreeing over the metaphor to use for God is a constructive dialog. We may both learn from the engagement. Each metaphor will have some truth and some falsity (in fact, isn’t that almost the definition of metaphor?). So your metaphor will have some truth and mine some falsity. If I have listened, I will come out of the conversation with a deeper understanding.

Disagreeing over what God is is less constructive. In fact I would say childish. The Cabbalists used to say that it was only possible to apply negative attributes to God, and then only as a reminder that God is beyond all attributes. You can’t talk about what God is.  

But on a broader level, the process of searching for truth, in my opinion, does not have uniform methods, nor uniform criteria for defining the searched-for object, i.e., truth is not absolute (or pure). For one to identify some thing or proposition as true means there must be some idiosyncratic, internal resonance or internal criteria within oneself which validates the external object or proposition as true. Given the composition of an individual’s essence and experience, that person’s formulation of the “truth” will always be different from another’s. (Excuse my divergence from your line of thinking.) 

I don’t think it is a divergence. Metaphor is personal understanding. Which is really the only kind of understanding we can have.

My dictionary equates “substrate” with substratum” and defines it as the base upon which an organism lives. Are you familiar with Paul Tillich’s conception of God as the ground of being. And, if so, is this what you are pointing to?

No, but I am interested. Which of his books would you recommend I start with?

I came at it from the other end. The underlying assumption of physics is that we are observing the properties of something when we do experiments, like energy as a property of space-time.

But as we look at broader and broader sets of phenomena the nature of that “something” becomes more and more ephemeral. It has been postulated that the entire observable universe is just a three-dimensional bubble in a higher dimensional space, and that pockets of that higher space are causally isolated from other parts. Which means, particularly if it is infinite (which is the simplest assumption, even though absurd), that anything, in fact everything which is possible is happening, right now (whatever that means) in one or the other of those other isolated pockets.

But here is the catch: since they are causally isolated from us, it is not possible to find out anything about them. Which pretty much makes them imaginary. Which pretty much makes us imaginary as well, doesn’t it? Why should we be special?

Now, “imaginary” does not necessarily imply an “imaginer”, but it doesn’t necessarily preclude one, either.  

Not certain about this. “Reportage”, if that means what has been said about some thing, is couched in words. And words in themselves are symbolic, metaphoric. 

It was too fancy a choice of words. I meant only that if a story were interpreted as a description of events, it is easy to dismiss it.

Let’s take the Ascension. If we take Acts 1:9 as a news report, and true in the sense that news reports are true, then we must assume that it is only because video cameras hadn’t been invented yet that there is any controversy about what happened that day.

Now I will challenge this perspective as bad theology, if anyone wants to go down that path; but my mission is to the atheists; and it is their challenge that it is bad physics that I would rather address.

Taking it as a news report, and saying that people just aren’t lifted up into the clouds is facile. It’s a trivial argument to construct and nobody learns anything. Speaking only to the atheist, now, I would say that you have found the falsity in the story. Big deal.

If we take it instead as metaphor it becomes a well of potential wisdom; but drawing truth from that well is work, and if you think you already have all the answers you probably will prefer the quick coup.

Set next to Isaiah 1, as it might well have been when it was first written (for the early Christian communities were still practicing weekly Torah readings, augmented by their own gospels), the image of Jesus being lifted into the clouds and accepted by God stands next to Isaiah’s image of smoke from burnt offerings rising to the clouds but being rejected by God.

It’s a bit of a challenge to find value for the modern atheist in these passages, mostly because our country has not yet drifted so far from its core values nor paid the heavy price of foreign domination that Judah had in Isaiah’s time; but it could certainly be seen as a warning (do you like the word “prophesy”?). God rejects the trappings of the Jewish religion (“your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates”) because they have forgotten their underlying values (“they do not defend the fatherless, and the widow’s cause does not come to them”).

The Ascension, then, is an image of God, simultaneously offering and accepting Himself as a sacrifice, and ending forever the era of religion dominated by ritual; and freeing (or really, obligating) us to follow the dictates of our own conscience.

Who among us can not benefit from looking at our life and asking whether we have used somebody else’s rules to set aside the callings of our own conscience?

Or, if you prefer, you can just say that people don’t fly, and go look for another easy win.

Wow. Good stuff. Thanks.

EPH, every time I read one of your posts, I am struck by the wisdom you display.  I pray you will continue to use this gift to bring glory to the name of Jesus Christ, as you did here.

Conrad,

Many will say they are of Christ, but there is no fruit to show. But there are Christians that don't live like the devil.

You will know them by their fruit.

Many will say to the Lord on that day, Lord have I not done great things in your name, and the gates of Heaven will be shut to them. He will let them know that they knew Him not.

The Bible also talks of the wisdom of man, the wise of the world, not being the wisdom of God! That is seen here on this site.

Conrad,

I will say this, many times I have plucked the beam out of my own eye. Yes i have. And i have to ask for forgiveness everyday, because i know i am not perfect. And what to the looks good to the world, Is not good to God. Not always.

I will go by God's word, and not mans word.

I a wonderful day!

Conrad, as you sit on your high horse telling JoJo about the speck in her brother's eye, I would just like to point out to you that you are the only one I see passing judgment here.  Your entire article is your judgment on Christian's who live in pursuit of the Word and dare to share their beliefs with others. 

You are welcome to your opinions, and as I've tried to point out to you, your not alone holding the opinions you have expressed.  There are thousands of churches across our land preaching and teaching the same things. 

Liberal Theology is not a new concept and your views fit tightly with what is taught in it.  Perhaps a little research into the subject will reveal to you where you belong. 

But in the mean time, I'd suggest a look in the mirror before condemning others for the same actions you partake. 

Thank you Brother Mike,

At least we do judge ourselves, for not all think themselves as the great almighty. Tell the truth of our Heavenly Father, and if they refuse to listen, wipe the dust off your feet and move on....Matthew 10: 14.

Well said. So many people want to take Jesus out and make the whole Gospel Love. Well jesus did tell the woman to go and sin no more. Jesus was love in "truth". And as long as Jesus and the Cross is in my faith and my faith I am a Christian. without Him and the cross, it is a religion.